Home Forums General General Is Command&Control in games a myth?

Viewing 11 posts - 81 through 91 (of 91 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #200759
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    Editing reply deleted.

    #200761
    Avatar photomadman
    Participant

    Sounds more like adding role playing (and character traits to massage actions) and still friction but no command and control. Sorry, just my $0.02.

    #200768
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    Madman:

    Don’t be sorry. Every $0.02 offered is an opportunity to learn and rethink a problem. I view constructive criticism as useful, not insulting. We are cool.

    I hadn’t really thought about it as role playing but I can certainly see in hindsight that it might appear that way. I will rethink this and make clarifications later.

    Yes, there is not really a lot of command and control as we would recognise it in today’s military when examining the European Dark Ages and Medieval periods because that didn’t really exist as we model it today, based on our experience with more formal and professional armies since the Early Modern period. These battles and command structures were more governed by personal relationships (the trinoda necessitas, homage and fealty) than they were by rank (social and martial) or authority in most cases. It was less the authority of command and more the managing the personalities and ambitions of subordinates that produced some small modicum of control, IMHO.

    Cheers, be well and good gaming.

    Rod Robertson

    #200770
    Avatar photoMike
    Keymaster

    Ivan: Perhaps what’s needed to better model the chaos and personal relationships of Dark Age and Medieval combat is trying to incorporate some schizophrenia into the mix. Everybody is thinking about this question from a European, top-down and Westphalian perspective when reasonably well trained armies were “commanded and controlled” by officers who, whether they were competent or not, had a reasonable expectation that their troops and subordinate officers would do as they were told, if an order was given and received. There was considerable social conditioning to obey orders drilled into folk and the cost of not obeying orders was very high. However in the Dark Ages and Medieval period in most of Europe such well conditioned and well trained armies were uncommon outside of Byzantium and the later Mongol armies. So maybe the C&C approach for Dark Age and Medieval combat should be turned upside down?! Rather than being commander-centric, why not start with key subordinate commanders and generate traits and abilities/disabilities or strengths/weaknesses for each of them randomly during a one-off game or at start of a campaign game and then replace or reshuffle them, demote or promote them as the battles unfold in a campaign. Each subordinate will have a small suite of “moves” which he (or she) will use in combat or conflict. Thus have the job of the CinC be the managent of these various personalities and their strengths/weaknesses to execute their moves for victory points. Whichever player does the best job of managing these wilful and not necessarily fully cooperative subordinates will gain the most victory points and will ultimately win the game (even if they might loose the battle). Finally a game where a well executed rearguard action might win the game even though the retreating army lost he battle! The Song of Roland being brought to life! Using this bottom-up command/management perspective, siege warfare might be fun to play too. Managing your subordinates as they deal with boredom, disease, intrigue, duels of honour or vengeance, harassing enemy raids, securing lines of supply, etc. could make investing a castle or a fortified town a fun game without necessitating a suicidal frontal attack. How could subordinates be managed? That’s a question for the game designer to work out. Skill tests, contested rolls based on trait scores, whatever you need to get it right. C&Cs would also have traits and strengths/weaknesses but unlike subordinates they would not be randomly determined, but would rather be bought by players before the start of the game or campaign. Then players would use their traits and abilities to shape the intelligence gathering, preparations, execution and exploitation/resolution of the conflict at hand. Scenarios could include non-combat challenges which the C&C might have to use prescious resources to manage (like disease, shortages of monies, malnutrition or bad food among the troops, the arrival of the Dominicans and their Inquisition, etc. to add additional frictions into the mix. Oh, and then there is the battle too! Giscard de Tours is a drunken sot, prone to debauchery but is a formidable and charismatic subordinate whose followers idolise him and who is prone to impetuos military improvisation. Haloric of Aachen is a cunning polititician but a poor combatant and only a fair sub-commander but he is ambitious and well connected politically and financially. Bishop Imar – the Hammer of God is a religious fanatic and a brutal Church Militant who will never spare a Saracen or a heretic but who has the ears of the Pope and his bankers. Bezu the Barbican is a clever and resourceful mercenary with formidable tactical skills and very well trained soldiers, but he does not want to waste the lives of his well-trained men and will wait until the moment is right to strike, even if his C&C thinks otherwise. How will each player manage a preparation for battle and a battle with four or five such individuals as subordinates serving them? There’s your C3I challenge! Now have at it and then we’ll begin pushing pretty lead minis about the table while you both sort that out. Cheers and good gaming. Rod Robertson.

    I like this.

    #200810
    Avatar photomadman
    Participant

    I like adding an element of role playing to players/leaders in a game. I am doing it with some, originally Stargrunt II now Ambush Alley/Force on Force, games set in my Traveller universe (OK one planet actually).

    Also I game post WWI to future and skirmish to battalion level (miniatures scale from 6mm to 15mm) and want to introduce command and control rules but could never figure how to truly implement them without double blind and referee(s). So that is why I was following this discussion to see if anyone had a good, preferably, workable idea(s).

    #200812
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    I like adding an element of role playing to players/leaders in a game. I am doing it with some, originally Stargrunt II now Ambush Alley/Force on Force, games set in my Traveller universe (OK one planet actually). Also I game post WWI to future and skirmish to battalion level (miniatures scale from 6mm to 15mm) and want to introduce command and control rules but could never figure how to truly implement them without double blind and referee(s). So that is why I was following this discussion to see if anyone had a good, preferably, workable idea(s).

    Madman:

    Yes, we did much the same things in Montréal, Kingston and Ottawa during the late 1980s and 1990s with double-blind games and referees. We focused on 6mm Cold War and WWII battles, 15mm combat team level Cold War, Arab-Israeli Wars and WWII battles, 15mm ACW and Ancient campaigns and Squad Leader games (both with miniatures replacing counters and without miniatures – which is why I added it here). But double blind and refereed games weren’t really about command and control in my opinion, but rather about limiting intelligence and forcing caution, scouting/thorough reconnaissance and blasting everything in sight with recce by fire, suppressive fire and, if available, pre-planned or called-in artillery stonks.

    To simulate command and control limitations we gave command elements  “command ratings” and troop elements “training ratings” from 1-20 and in order to effect an successful order change, both the command unit and the receiving troops had to make their rolls successfully. These rolls could be negatively modified by various factors such as fatigue, moral state, proximity to higher command elements, EW conditions, meteorological conditions, etc. If either roll was failed then the player(s) would have to wait, stick with the plan as perceived by the referee and try again next turn. Reaction to fire taken or sighting enemy or unknown elements allowed certain reactions immediately after the fact without a command, like popping smoke, dispersing or going to ground, seeking close cover and suppressive fire. However creative reactions were only allowed if the troop elements involved could make their training rolls, often with disadvantageous modifiers. That got interesting because such reactions often became piecemeal affairs with some fire teams, sections, platoons or companies passing their rolls and others failing. Then players would have to make command and training rolls to regroup and become a coherent force once again before they could carry on with anything more complicated than defending themselves or charging the closest spotted enemy positions!

    That system was the genesis of my thinking for the Dark Age and Medieval combat suggestions, obviously heavily modified to include personality traits and “moves”.

    Ah, those were the days!

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod.

    #200822
    Avatar photoIvan Sorensen
    Participant

    When it is skirmish gaming, we often add a bit of roleplaying to our games. We played a game recently where the rules really were not clear about a great many things, however when we approached it more as a roleplaying exercise, it all became clear.

    #200824

    I think for purposes of command control discussions, we need to make sure at which echelon we are most concerned with.  Man to man skirmishes are going to have a lot more variability in options or digressions than the leader of the van or wing can cause in a set piece medieval battle. Operational level command control vs tactical.

    Also the “when” is also important: The actions of a commander during the approach to battle, may well be more varied, than after a set piece affair has started.  if our rules have sticky zones of control the restraints on a commander may well be the most historical.  Medieval formations basically only moved forward, and only fell back when broken after combat so the question is if melee occurs, when and for how long.. After that, pursuit  situation re-establishes a lot possible options or actions for a unit’s commander.

    Mick Hayman
    Margate and New Orleans

    #201663
    Avatar photomadman
    Participant

    Rod

    Bringing a slightly dead topic back to life but I really like your comments. Are you still gaming and if so where? I am about an hour north of Toronto but get to Ottawa for CanGames.

    #201672
    Avatar photoRod Robertson
    Participant

    madman:

    I moved from Montréal to London, Ontario about six years ago and am therefore about 200 – 300 km from you plus or minus. I am still gaming though at a much less intense level due to the challenges of real life. More solo gaming which I am not very good at and frankly do not like playing so much and lots of painting and planning, but a dearth of historical gamers here in London and the disruption of Covid-19 has left me wanting. I went to Hot Lead at Stratford in 2023 for a day and was astonished at how few London gamers I encountered there.

    If you’re about an hour North of Toronto then you’re closer to some of my old Montréal wargaming buddies now living in Ontario. They are in Orleans (near Ottawa), Whitby and Kingston. If you want more details about them or myself, then please drop me a PM here on TWW or tell me here in this thread and we can figure out how to exchange e-mail addresses.

    Cheers and good gaming.

    Rod.

     

    #201682
    Avatar photoPaint it Pink
    Participant

    Like it😁 I remember reading in “Battle for Wargamers” or “Military Modelling” at one of the London wargame shows in the late 70’s – early 80’s about a Star trek game where the players had to don thick gloves and baseball helmets when the ships lost life support and the game was played by having to move small card counters for action / events.

    I played in a couple of those games; first as an umpire, and then in another game as the admiral of the Orions.

    One is good, more is better
    http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/
    http://ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk/

Viewing 11 posts - 81 through 91 (of 91 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.