The Battle of Cowpens

[vtsaogames]

A post about the battle and a brief review of Babit’s book about it here.

Blogger has gotten very restrictive about posting photos from the internet.

I can at least post one here.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[kyoteblue]

Thanks for your book and battle review.

[OotKust]

Nice work…

Blogger, aka Guuggler, runs others into the ground and then plays innocent and chaste- such perversity is lost on them, those who claim/ed “do no harm”.

At the risk of commenting on a past politico, Tarleton reads like a spoilt brat, who was allowed to exchange his virtues for psychopathic outbursts. Can’t say I was endeared to him at all, in war or peace.

The atrocities he/his men committed should have resulted in hanging. Such were the times…

-d

Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!

[Not Connard Sage]

It should be remembered that Tarleton commanded the British Legion – American Loyalists. They saw the Patriots as traitors to the Crown.

Obvious contrarian and passive aggressive old prat, who is taken far too seriously by some and not seriously enough by others.

[Guy Farrish]

It should also be remembered that the winners of wars parlay their false memories into historical narratives.

Oh, and good review – I haven’t read Babits’ book, I probably should! 1998? Is it really that long ago since he wrote it? It’s been on my ‘read this next week’ list for a ******* long time then!

Re-enactors – some very useful insights you can’t get from reading. An awful lot of false extrapolation from dressing up as well. No offence to re-enactors – I play with toy soldiers.

Tarleton? Not a monster. Not a saint.

[OB]

Good review, I enjoyed it.

The atrocities were real enough and also standard operating procedure for the British Army in any rebellion.  It was considered that those in rebellion were not entitled to the normal codes of conduct between opposing armies. Policy then rather than individual choice.  Of course some were more enthusiastic than others.

OB
http://withob.blogspot.co.uk/

[Guy Farrish]

I was thinking particularly of ‘Tarleton Quarter’ the killing of soldiers who had surrendered or were trying to surrender

Supposedly originating at Waxhaws, the term referred to the ‘massacre’ of surrendering rebels by Tarleton’s force. According to British accounts however, there was a talk with Buford under an American white flag of truce when Tarleton’s horse was shot from under him in contravention of the accepted laws of war. The British then continued the fight.

To balance things up – the rebel troops imposed their own ‘Tarleton Quarter’ at Cowpens on British trying to surrender, or murderous atrocity if you prefer.

A lot of this probably stems from the difficulty of taking a surrender. Who knows the enemy is surrendering and who is engaged in a bloody combat at that moment and has no idea what is going on?

cf the many allied reports of Germans surrendering  in WWII and then those accepting the surrender being killed. It was probably often (usually?) a case of one German  section surrendering while another fire team was still unknowingly engaged. It helped foster the ‘tough luck chum’ approach of shooting first and accepting a surrender second amongst allies. Being  humane is difficult in inhumane circumstances. But we blame the perfidious Germans in WWII and the Americans the perfidious Brits in whatever they have decided to call their insurrection this week.

[vtsaogames]

Guy Farrish wrote:

It should also be remembered that the winners of wars parlay their false memories into historical narratives…

 

Losers too, as in the Lost Cause and later, the Stab in the Back, etc.

 

I did not claim that Crown forces had a monopoly on atrocity, despite the claims of that dreadful film The Patriot.

 

Don’t recall Morgan’s troops executing prisoners at Cowpens. Kings Mountain and other places were another story.

 

Not so much a talk with Buford as him waving a white flag when a shot brought down Tarleton’s horse and the murder began. Not sure just how much effort Banastre put into stopping it.

 

Tarleton, as a crabby old man, went on to be the burr under Wellington’s saddle in the House of Commons.

 

Ah yes, who are the traitors? In 1863 Confederate troops hung Union prisoners from the 1st North Carolina (Union) regiment as traitors.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[Guy Farrish]

Vincent, I wasn’t trying suggest you, or anyone else, was claiming any side had a monopoly of atrocities. Just suggesting some versions of history have a particular gloss on them.

Lost Cause and Stab in the Back…big with the losers, but I suspect most historians, vice those still fighting the wars in their heads, go ‘Pffftt!’ and shrug.

But you are right, some losers continue to spin their version and eventually, if committed enough, make it the accepted narrative. A couple spring to mind!

I’m sure we can all think of cases (be fun, elsewhere, not here, to compare lists and see how many ‘fake narratives’ appear on both the losers and winners list for the same conflict!) but perhaps that is a contentious debate not for TWW.

Tarleton was probably still tee’d off with Wellington he got the Peninsula and Tarleton didn’t. Nice what if – unlikely – but what if Tarleton had been given command of the campaign?

[vtsaogames]

Guy Farrish wrote:

…Tarleton was probably still tee’d off with Wellington he got the Peninsula and Tarleton didn’t. Nice what if – unlikely – but what if Tarleton had been given command of the campaign?

 

Hmm, an extremely aggressive commander who never had more than a weak brigade under him? I see two possibilities; either a rash advance ending in a debacle like Saratoga or Yorktown, or that aggressive spirit thirty years later evaporating when saddled with independent command of several divisions. One of those expeditions that landed, consumed supplies, and re-embarked. Possibly leading to a change of prime minister back in London. Those are my guesses.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[Guy Farrish]

Sounds very likely. He thought he’d be brilliant apparently – so no loss of confidence with age!

I just thought from a gaming point of view it might be give a (short!) ‘what if’ campaign. I wonder how quickly he would have lost the support of the Spanish?

[vtsaogames]

I’ve been poking around trying to figure out the Blogger issue with photos. They won’t even let me use pictures in the public domain. Photos I took with my own camera are fair game. I had been considering a post about French battalion formations, using some true 15mm Hinchcliffe figures from the 70s. At least I can post those. Perhaps tomorrow.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[OotKust]

vtsaogames wrote:

true 15mm Hinchcliffe figures from the 70s.

What??? I never knew…

Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!

[vtsaogames]

Never knew Hinchcliffe made 15mm figures? I have a bunch on them in greatcoats, used for a late 70s campaign of the 1814 invasion of France. The strategic game used OSG’s Napoleon at Bay. Tactical rules were by a club member, the designer of the 1776 tactical rules. The French had a wild romp for a while. We caught the Russian Guard corps and wiped it out, also the Wurttemberg corps. And then the sky fell, ere I saw Elba…

 

Or never knew I was old enough to game in the 70s? :^)

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[vtsaogames]

Ok, folks, found out what the problem with posting images is. My wife has been having a dialogue with tech support at her art website. It seems a group of lawyers has automated a search of websites looking for images used without permission and been suing people. Don’t know if AI is being used. I guess later today I’ll go through my previous posts and yank images that I didn’t create.

 

Looks like they are fencing in the open range. Perhaps I should start a post just about this issue.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[OB]

OotKust wrote:

vtsaogames wrote:

true 15mm Hinchcliffe figures from the 70s.

What??? I never knew…

Could be Hinchcliffe System 12.  A comprehensive range of Napoleonic 12mm figures and terrain.  I never owned any but I saw them about.

 

OB
http://withob.blogspot.co.uk/

[Guy Farrish]

I remember this discussion somewhere else some years ago  (I think it may have been in ‘another place’) and the consensus was they did make some 15mm Napoleonics and made another 15mm range under licence – can’t remember the name and can’t be bothered searching – sorry!

I remember System 12, pretty sure I even had a few, but never really did anything with them. You’d spot the difference from 15s.

[vtsaogames]

Yeah, these are 15s and not up to current sculpting standards. But I have almost 200 in the same advancing pose. They are always welcome in a game when the newer figures have seen too much combat. Maybe tomorrow I’ll post the French battalion formation thing. Spent much of today pulling internet images from my old posts.

 

There were Napoleonettes, which were not Hinchcliffe, closer to gnomes. And Heritage, also different.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[Guy Farrish]

Heritage! That was the name being talked about being cast under licence. (no idea if that were true). Thanks Vincent.

[vtsaogames]

Maybe that’s what I have. It was a while ago.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

[OotKust]

Guy Farrish wrote:

I remember System 12

Hinchliffe Handbook 1974- on hand because a) supposed to be scanning for another collector of detritus and b) identifying horses by poses to fit the light/ heavy categories without current photos being available (lucky Ian Hinds is so amiable about helping sell his!).

Page 132 is ‘System12′ -an advertorial that isn’t that convincing really:-

http://IMG_7408 by DaveW[/url], on Flickr

to grab a copy of it! Too large for tww..

And Heritage, bought a bunch of bags [ 50-60 figs??] from RAFM back in 80s… [same time as E,E & L] dont have any digital pics  but asked friend I sold all my 15s too to seek… a couple of packets I have in deep store (ie somewhere…) are Prussian SYW IIRC because I was going to swing them into 1806 Prussians.

We shall wait…

Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!

[OotKust]

OotKust wrote:

We shall wait…

Mate has come thru and photographed the Heritage figures for me.
Heres some original Uhlans (the colour brighter than 15s really appear I’m sure):

and some infantry, we think he did again or from new lead…

I think I did the feldzeichen (sp??) in a pale brown, representing drying leaves.

So thats some nice early generation 15’s…

cheers dave

Swinging from left to right no matter where the hobby goes!

[vtsaogames]

Those look pretty close to the French I’ve got.

It's never too late to have a happy childhood

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