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John McBrideParticipantOkay, thanks.
John McBrideParticipantGuy, it might be the ditch but it also might be the wall. The little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike, remember?
: a long narrow hole that is dug in the ground to carry water : a ditch or trench
: a bank or mound of earth that is built to control water and especially to protect an area from flooding
John McBrideParticipanthttp://www.splinteredlightminis.com
But the photo is of greens, so it is likely to be some weeks, or a month or two, before the castings are ready for purchase.
John McBrideParticipantIs there a rule for ettins being immobilized when the two heads can’t agree on which way to go?
John McBrideParticipantA story-telling game is often great fun, but doesn’t it assume that the person running the game is both 1) a decent story teller? and 2) knows a LOT about the situation, its dynamics and its variables, already?
When young Ronald Reagan was a sports announcer on radio, he would describe a game as though he were there, just from reading the stats coming on the ticker. But that only worked because he had really seen a lot of games. (And, come to think of it, because his listeners had, too.)
Being a good story-teller is a skill in itself.
And how much would one LEARN from a story-telling game beyond what is in the story? learn about the wider phenomena?
John McBrideParticipantYeah, the trick will be — as it always is with rules design — to integrate enough distinctions such as those to cover a complex reality, without losing a playable simplicity. Good luck; it does sound promising.
John McBrideParticipantHow would the pressure of a sniper (lethal at some distance) compare to the pressure of an ied (lethal but only in one place)? And one is active and the other more reactive.
And what is the pressure of civilians. whether innocent or “innocent”? The sniper in a solo hole is not the same pressure as the same sniper shooting from the orphanage window, I assume?
John McBrideParticipantHah! Guess the further back in time, the less definitive everything is. But there’s a couple of fairly large battles around Chattanooga — such as Brown’s Ferry, where I was this morning — that are simply obliterated by development. Impossible to see or understand anything.
John McBrideParticipantYes, the initial set up is often the most important move. I understand and totally agree with starting armies close, especially in a convention game. You want to get right to it. But even then there are ample ways to allow pre-battle maneuvering. I use the movement trays for PRIDE units as hidden markers, with some dummies mixed in; the whole is affected by rival scouting (i.e. if you are seriously outscouted you get no dummies, while the other side gets extra.)
But one fun and effective technique is to have an accurate map, make lots of copies, and let the opposing teams mark deployments. Or, faster and simpler, is to have prepared initial battleplans on the maps, and let each side choose one. THEN deploy. I typically use about five or six for each side. Strong left, strong right, evenly spaced, strong central reserve with light screen, flank march to a flank, etc. Each sides chooses one, put the toys down, begin.
John McBrideParticipantCanines?
You might check Splintered Light’s 20mm range by Bob Olley. Depending on how small you want your kobolds.
John McBrideParticipantI love JR but prefer JR2. Have you looked at JOHNNY TREMAINE? I think it is JR for AWI but have never played it. There was also a JR variant for 7YW or such: LAST ARGUMENT OF KINGS, maybe?
And I stole a lot of key idea — simultaneous movement with chits — from JR for PRIDE OF LIONS.
I’ll give your blog a good look.
John McBrideParticipantCompletely agree about the usefulness in getting people together — and trying to avoid rules lawyers!
I think one has to choose between points based on battlefield effectiveness versus cost of raising a unit. Expensive does not necessarily equal effective. Best example would be a militia unit raised from among the skilled technicians of your armament factory. You might put them into a battle in the direst of emergencies, but the cost would be off the charts. But they probably would not be very good fighters — at least very green.
The griffons of Wyldewood and Mountain Home feed themselves by hunting, but there is certainly a cost in training them, simply in terms of finding riders and then taking time to develop tactics. But at least they do not require expensive aviation fuel.
Their scarcity is not due to expense but to their status as PREDATORS; a given area will only support so many.
In PRIDE I wanted battles mostly to be decided by a clash of battle lines, so I deliberately made line infantry units cheap in points. A skirmishing light cavalry unit is extremely valuable, but you can get two to three line infantry for the same points. And a solid, deep, wide battle line is extremely valuable too!
John McBrideParticipantPhil, those dice are cool!
Someone mentioned random armies, which can be a lot of fun. We used to do that with JOHNNY REB: each side got a certain number of regiments and batteries, then diced for size and weapon type and basic morale point. Games were ROUGHLY even, but lots of devils in those details. Combined with hidden unit markers and visibility, made for some great games.
John McBrideParticipantWoo Hooh!!!
John McBrideParticipantYes, non-linear. Skirmish units in PRIDE are extremely important, except when they are not. Opposing skirmishers must match up and more or less offset one another. But their movement makes them VERY flexible — they can shoot gaps between units and get into the enemy rear (which I allow mainly as the mechanism to encourage generals to keep a coherent battle line) and one skirmisher unopposed and in position to hit an enemy rear while it is engaged to the front is a game winner. But such units are only effective under the right circumstances. And their power is more a function of movement than of combat power which is generally relatively low. And like mages and spirits, they are really only very effective if one side has more than the other. So you can spend a lot of points to little effect except just to stay even.
John McBrideParticipantWe have played hundreds of games of PRIDE, but we are STILL occasionally finding situations in which the rules need to be adjusted, or match-ups that yield unacceptable outcomes. It is because there are simply too many factors to ever playtest every value of every variable in relation to every other variable. I think this is especially true in fantasy and likely in sci-fi, since one is not bound by the realities of our own real world (things like gravity! or human nature!)
So points systems are never going to be more than approximate.
Playtest, playtest, playtest.
John McBrideParticipantWhich is always fun for the creator, and sometimes great fun for the rest of us.
If I ever do get into 15mm sci-fi – and there are lovely minis available, aren’t there? — it will be as a result of finding an irresistible future world to game in. Not really interested in space orcs and squats; might as well do fantasy. Not really interested in space Soviets and null-g Nazis; might as well do the Eastern front. I read a LOT of sci-fi, particularly military sci-fi. But haven’t found the world I want to game in.
Just looked in at your website. I do like the Amalgam as an enemy!
John McBrideParticipantI did a big ACW game, years ago, with kids in a week-long summer camp. First day the South told me they were hiding a brigade in a woods beside a hill near the place where a road entered the table. Then we all forgot about it. Until Thursday when the Union brought in a bunch of artillery via thta road, moved them onto the hill, and unlimbered. And got destroyed next turn when the Rebs came out of the woods. OUTRAGE! Fortunately I had had the Reb players write it down when they did it first day and kept the hidden orders in my pocket. I had even forgotten they were there. Great fun. But still very limited in overall impact on the game.
When we used to play JOHNNY REB a lot we made wooden blocks roughly the size of a unit. We always used dummy markers anyway. If two dummies ee each other, remove both. If real sees dummy, remove the dummy and the other side knows there is something there real so a block is put down. Might be cavalry or guns as well as infantry, and might be several units.
Even with the troops on the table one doesn’t know essential stats like BMP (basic morale point, VERY important) or whether their longarms are rifled Enfields or smoothbore muskets.
So there are ways to maintain some Fog.
John McBrideParticipantDavid has an awesome collection of city ruins, Osgiliath style, but we have yet to develop rules to play in them.
I like forests, both for fantasy and for FIW skirmishes and such.
We have some great desert terrain, too, but as yet have not gamed on it!
John McBrideParticipantPRIDE OF LIONS gives each unit a die level, from D20 (strongest) to D6. This is used in combat and also in morale, and is the most important stat. Movement rate and missile ability are also important. So the basic equation is die level x2 plus bonus points for faster movement and for shooting ability. So halfling militia with pitchforks and sling (D6 plus another D6 missile attack) would be something like 18 points per unit, while dark elven lancers riding raptors (d20 and fast) would be something like 20 x 2 plus 16 for the speed = 56. Then there’s added points for things like FEARSOME or drilled or such, as well as point reduction s for things like Vulnerable to Shooting (unarmored elephants, for example). All rather arbitrary and requiring fiddling to balance — and even then susceptible to minimax lawyering.
It really just amounts to making a list of variables in combat performance, decided which are more important and then weighting them, and coming up with some simple equation. And being aware of the assumptions made and emphasizing the limitations of the resulting system.
PLAYTEST, playtest, playtest.
John McBrideParticipantFencing. Not just individual bouts but also competing in a tournament with opportunities to watch competitors whom you have not faced yet.
John McBrideParticipantI have played, twice only because it is a lot of work for the referee, games of JOHNNY REB by email. My brother Phil set up the table, and his son my nephew played one side and I the other, we three each being in different cities. Phil would take photos from table level of what could be seen from positions we held. The terrain was high enough, hills and trees and a town, that it blocked LOS. We’d each email orders, Phil would execute them and roll all the dice, then send us results we would know and new photos of what we could see.
Great fun, and getting a cavalry unit up on that high hill on the side of the table suddenly became very desirable.
John McBrideParticipantI waste a lot of time (when I have no one to game against) with John Tiller’s ACW computer games. The computer AI is an idiot, but if you choose the right scenarios and bias the combat results a bit in the computer’s favor you can get an enjoyably challenging game. But the problem is as Sam describes: if you are doing Gettysburg as Lee, but you have to make decisions about the facing of every regiment, and deploy every individual SECTION of guns — sometimes a single gun! — you are certainly not playing from an army commander’s perspective. Not to mention that you know 100 x too much, even with the computer’s Fog of War.
I have actually done a kriegspiel type game a few times when I had a hall of classrooms available on a Saturday: table with troops in central room, and opposing teams in their respective rooms. Neither side has seen the map. I appoint the youngest kid in each team as cavalry commander, give them a blank sheet of paper and a yardstick (which is almost never used), and 10 minutes to make a map of the battlefield. Then the commanders issue orders and I move troops, once again letting the scout come in and see what’s happening and report back. Continue until things are mixed up and developed, and then I let everyone come in and play the situation as it exists.
John McBrideParticipantYes, I need to do an icon, when I figure out how.
I should point out that there IS a good bit of planning in BLOODY DAWN, it is just that it happens before the opening move. But then the old saw about no battle plan surviving contact with the enemy kicks in in spades.
Don, I’m curious how your WWI air game works. Is there any sort of preliminary planning? How do you integrate individual decisions into an overall event?
Reason I ask is, I have a back-burner project of an assault by goblin air commandoes (riding giant bats) on the dwarves’ mountain base for their balloon boats. Again, lots of different groups running around in confusion in the dark. I have been (slowly — this is a several-years-old project) trying to devise some sort of small group mission system, probably with some sort of card or random event mechanism for injecting a lot of friction. The puzzle is how to integrate a dozen or more separate missions, which however all happen in close proximity with the possibility of impacting each other.
Sounds a bit like what you are doing, perhaps?
I still remember an early class on infantry platoon tactics, at Infantry Officer Basic at Fort Benning, way back in 1971. Problem was to get past an open space, but with covering terrain on either side, with an enemy machine gun already engaged. Of course we set up our own mg for covering fire along with a rifle squad, while the platoon leader took one squad hooking around the right and the platoon sergeant took the other squad hooking to the left.
Of course it was a total disaster, and we hardly needed — but got anyway — the profane admonition from the captain instructing us, to KEEP YOUR BLANK BLANK MEN TOGETHER. But there was a very thoughtful follow-up about friction and differing perspectives and problems with multiple decision makers.
John McBrideParticipantGreat topic and discussion. Is Perspective the same thing as the level of command/decision making? When I design a game or a simulation (which I used to do a lot for classroom teaching) the question I have to answer is who is the player pretending to be? And what problems is he facing and what assets does he control and what reasonable choices are available to him.
BLOODY DAWN is my rules for the Alamo, designed for the 15mm Blue Moon stuff. It is one of those games where the starting set up is the most important move in the game. The Mexican team takes a map and planning sheet and decides where and when their five assault columns will hit along the perimeter, while the Texian team decides how to deploy their limited garrison, and in particular which artillery to fully crew. Double blind.
Once the game begins, it becomes very much a “sergeants’ battle” in the dark. Each Mexican player is now a column commander, and his choices are limited to just three or four: stand and fire a volley at the walls, maneuver to left or right, or charge the walls with ladders. Or fall back if his column’s morale is shaky and he fears a rout is imminent.
The Texan players each have two or three of the garrison’s officers WHO ARE THE ONLY TEXANS ALLOWED TO MOVE. Except that an officer can yell “Follow me!” or “Half of you follow me!” and take men within 6″ (as far as he can be heard) along with him.
It’s a bit more complicated than that, especially once a Mexican column gets in, but for the most part the battle runs on auto-pilot, because once the Mexican columns are committed to an attack there’s just not a lot of maneuver choices. (Santa Anna did commit his reserve, and the column that hit the palisade did withdraw and maneuver to the west to attack the 18 pounder — and those sorts of things can happen in a game — but the design is really about EXPERIENCING a confused night assault as opposed to commanding one.
When I do a game at a con or with a group of kids I don’t really teach the rules; I explain the situation and describe what their reasonable options would be as whatever command role they are playing.
If this is a bit of what you mean by Perspective, then I wholeheartedly agree that it is fine basis for a game, at least in some cases.
John McBrideParticipantWhen I raised some of these issues on another forum, years ago, someone commented that 1000 points of Scythians sweep away 1000 points of ballista which destroy 1000 points of city walls that sneer at 1000 points of Scythians.
PRIDE is generic for anyone who wants such. I actually played in a great Poke-man game at Historicon, several years ago, in which a guy has used PRIDE’s mechanisms with Pokeman armies he had put together. Generic and also pretty modular; you can use what you like.
I absolutely agree that designed (and playtested!) scenarios are the best. But of course they require someone to do that.
I’ll have to check out HEAVY GEAR BLITZ. The Priority Level sounds interesting.
John McBrideParticipantIt occurs to me, further, that ANY non-material effect or factor is going to have to be depicted on the table somehow, unless it is noted on a roster off the table. If a unit is in disorder you can sometimes show that by misaligning minis or stands — which however takes time and requires extra handling — but if a unit is nervous or elated, those psychological states must either be noted on the unit’s sheet or else be marked on the table somehow. If keeping the table clear of clutter is the priority, I don’t see how to avoid record-keeping. Your compromise may vary from mine, but I am willing to put up with the markers in order to make the game run faster.
I have never played modern games including electronic warfare; how is that handled? I assume that magic — at least spells targeting commanders or morale, non-tangibles, would have the same range of choices?
Of course many magic spells do have a visible effect, whirlwinds and fireballs and such. And while spirits (good or evil) may be invisible, I think the convention of depicting them with minis is widely accepted.
Finally, I will add that we have found, and continue to find, pleasure in searching for just the right mini or marker to depict a particular spell. Several of our spell lists include “Ill Wind” which requires the targeted unit to roll twice and use the worst result. I’m thinking of a small base — a penny — with a pair of tiny dice glued to it, showing snake eyes. If I’ve choosen wisely, the kids need no explanation to understand which spell that is and what it does.
John McBrideParticipantYes, no doubt the better they mesh the less disruptive of suspension of disbelief they are. I think Peter Pig made ACW figures rummaging through empty ammo boxes, or such, to use to show when a regiment was out of ammo.
Maybe with David and me it is that much of the time we are gaming with kids, and if one of them has his druid cast Stranglevine, I can hand him the appropriate marker and tell him to put it down where he wants it. (And if the goblin shaman casts “Wolf’s Howl” I do make the player try to howl for us!)
I do take your point, but I think the visual effect of terrain and miniatures — and of markers — is important — we are not board gamers — but secondary to the flow of the story/game. I often give the Wyldewood druidical player, or the Vasty vault necromancer player, a collection of appropriate minis and other spell markers, to choose the one he thinks best fits the spell description. So the kid can look at all the spectres and haunts and pick the one best representing the fear he wants to inflict on his enemy. That way is does add to the story.
But yes, it is a lot of trade-offs, especially where game play versus imagination is concerned.
John McBrideParticipantYes, NOT being WH is something many of us aspire to! I last played HOTT 20+ years ago and found it fun but maybe a bit bland. MIGHTY ARMIES is similar (pips to move) but has a different and more robust feel in play and in its point system and army lists. Still limited spells, I think.
Gonna start a related but different topic.
John McBrideParticipantYes, wow, the faces are unbelievable!
John McBrideParticipantYup. And we use the colored “pipecleaner” fuzzies as markers, and for brainburns the mini gets a nice orange one twisted into a circle, like a crown! In a big battle a mage could end up with several!
John McBrideParticipantWell, you might give PRIDE a look. It’s close to your ideal in several ways.
A mage begins each turn with a certain amount of power, typically a d16 or a d20. Each spell has a difficulty level, from 3 (easy) to 10 (hard). The mage chooses his spell and rolls his power die. If the total exceeds the difficulty, the spell works. If the die roll ties or is below the difficulty the spell fails. IF THE DIE ROLL IS A MAXIMUM (e.g. a 20 on a d20 or a 16 on a d16) then the spell works but the mage has suffered a brainburn; his turn ends and next turn his power die is reduced a level (e.g. starting at a 612 instead of a d16).
A mage can attempt a second spell if his first one worked, but is now tiring and rolls a smaller die: d20 to d16 to d12 to d10 to d8 to d6 to d4. He can cast multiple spells until he fails one, but at increasing odds of a brainburn.
So choosing between powerful hard spells and easy/weak ones is important, as is knowing when to stop.
A mage can choose, instead of attempting to cast a spell of his own, to BLOCK an enemy spell; he rolls his die (and still risks a brainburn) and subtracts half the roll from an opponent’s roll.
Or he can BOOST an opponents by ADDING half his roll to an enemy roll, which might empower what would otherwise be a failure into succeeding, but also sharply incresases the odds that the opponent’s augmented roll is too high and so becomes a brainburn.
Spell lists have a lot of similar generic spells, but also many that are unique to cultures or philosophies. The hyena folk worship Entropy, for example, and have lots of bad luck and Murphy’s Law spells.
Spells (including Boost and Block) are cast simultaneously using cards.
There’s also illusions, divine pagan magic (Thor has his lightning), undead nihilism, Godfearers (ethical monotheists) Gifts, dwarven rune magic, etc. It is pretty customizable but not very generic. We start with the minis and then describe a culture, and then decide on spells that make sense within it. The points system works pretty well, and e.g two weaker spells users have advantages as well as disadvantages agiainst a single stronger mage who costs the same points. (The weaker guys have a harder time casting the powerful spells but are actually stronger on defense, blocking enemy spells.)
John McBrideParticipantHi,
There’s a lot to be said for the fairly limited number of spells as in, e.g., Rebel Mini’s MIGHTY ARMIES. (Or, on a tactical level, SONG OF BLADES AND HEROES)
Otoh, lots of us enjoy fiddling with spell lists and minimaxing with points systems and such. Depends of whether your prime pleasure is planning a game or actually PLAYING it! (Playing is obviously the desired end, but lots of us spend far more planning, willingly or not. How many hours of faculty meetings have I whiled away with army lists?!?)
In PRIDE OF LIONS magic can be quite important, though rarely decisive. It is the equivalent of, say, electronic warfare plus off-the-board artillery. Leadership (issuing orders, motivating troops, rallying routers, etc.) is at leasat as important, and the battle is usually decided by the clash of rival battle lines. As it should be.
But the magic system CAN be complex enough to be a sub-game in its own right, if players want to do it that way. One mid-level mage per side means a small impact on the outcome, particularly since the rival mages will often cancel out.
But give each side several mages, working from more than one spell list and with varying levels of power, and 1) the game slows down; 2) the magic battle becomes a separate “game”; and 3) magic may decide who wins.
Or maybe not; there’s the old Cold War joke: what do two Soviet tank generals say to each other when they meet in Paris? Answer: “Hey, I wonder who won the air war?”
John McBrideParticipantHi, Doc McBride here. Splintered Light Minis is my son, and I am the author of PRIDE OF LIONS rules for mass fantasy battles, plus some other stuff. Glad to see a new forum opening up.
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